The Traditional View of Daniel 8 and 11 Against the Bible
There is so much going on in the world today that makes many Christians think we must be at the doorstep of the Second Coming.
I sympathize with that view, because I also long for Yeshua’s return. The problem, however, is there are many prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.
The most information we have about the last of the last days is found in the Book of Daniel, specifically Daniel 8 and 11. Following this, we have the Olivet Discourse, which is parallel with the Seven Seals of Revelation. We also have many of the prophets of the Old Testament giving us insight into this time period.
The traditional view of Daniel 8 has it as it has been fulfilled in the past, specifically by Alexander the Great and the Diadochi. It has these four horns as being successors to Alexander. However, from history, we know there were five Diadochi, not four. These were Antigonus, Demetrius, Lysimachus, Seleucus, Ptolemy, and there may even have been a sixth in Cassander.
The problem with this view is the Bible is accurate, and said the division of the goat nation would be into four smaller rulers. Deeper still, out of one of these smaller nations rises the king that fights Jesus Christ, and it specifically says it happens in the latter time of their kingdom.
The Diadochi territories don’t exist anymore. The landmass is there, but the actual kingdoms have been dead for thousands of years.
The nail in the coffin for this traditional interpretation is the angel Gabriel—who was dispatched to answer Daniel’s prayer about the vision he received—says multiple times the vision is about the End Times.
“So, he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, ‘Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end’” (Daniel 8:17 [ESV]).
Again, two further verses, we have him saying it again.
“He said, ‘Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end’” (Daniel 8:19 [ESV]).
I appreciate the depth at which traditional scholars have studied these passages. But I’m going to take the word of an angel who stands before God over fallible men. And I am quite fallible. But logic dictates the traditional interpretation doesn’t hold water.
What gets interesting here are the following passages.
“As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia” (Daniel 8:20 [ESV]).
Seems historical, right? He said Media and Persia. The problem is, the Bible often uses ancient names to refer to lands that might be thousands of years in the future. Daniel would have understood the Medes and Persians. Gog and Magog are a fine example of an End Times prophecy using ancient names but being in the time of the End Times (see Ezekiel 38 &39). Whether Gog and Magog is Armageddon or a thousand years plus away, these ancient names are being used.
So we know the area of modern Iran and Iraq is what is being discussed. The prophecy further goes along to say a king (who is the first king of the nation, which Alexander was not) opposes this conquest and is victorious. Then, after the height of this nation’s power, the nation is broken into four smaller nations. Out of one of these nations comes the Antichrist.
“As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power” (Daniel 8:22 [ESV]).
“And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise” (Daniel 8:23 [ESV]).
The literal translation here says he understands hidden things, not riddles. That’s beside the point, though.
“His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints” (Daniel 8:24 [ESV]).
“By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning, he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand” (Daniel 8:25 [ESV]).
This king fights Jesus Christ. Meaning this can’t apply to the ancient world, but rather, this applies to the End Times.
Daniel 11 is an expansion of the same time period as Daniel 8, and again, the traditional interpretation has this all in the past (or past bleeding into future). But that makes little sense, because in Daniel 10:14, Gabriel again states it is about the End Times.
“… and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come” (Daniel 10:14 [ESV]).
Following this statement, Daniel 11 occurs. We have to remember there are no chapters in the original manuscript, so this complete section flowed as one continuous narrative.
Many people get hung up on Daniel 11, which mentions three more kings arising in Persia and a fourth far richer than the others, thinking it meant the past. But Persia of the past had twelve (at least) more kings, so that makes little sense. Also, the literal Hebrew says:
“… and, now, truth I declare to thee, Lo, yet three kings are standing for Persia, and the fourth doth become far richer than all, and according to his strength by his riches he stirreth up the whole, with the kingdom of Javan” (Daniel 11:2 [YLT]).
Three kings are to rule this area, then a fourth king will finally invade the Middle East and fight against the region of Greece/Turkey. The similarities to the ancient, historical battles can’t be overlooked, but when we read this as one continuous narrative, we see Jesus give us the key to understanding. Also, I believe these will be monarchs, not elected leaders. The word for king is used, not another one.
What follows in Daniel 11 is a continuous narrative over generations of the King of the North versus the King of the South, ultimately landing on the king introduced in Daniel 11:21. This king eventually sets up the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31.
Here’s the kicker, the thread that ties it all together. Jesus quotes Daniel 11:31 in His Olivet Discourse as an event that has not yet happened. Antiochus Ephiphanes can’t be in view here. I trust Jesus over traditional scholars. God bless their work.
This same king in Daniel 11:36 exalts himself above all gods and the God of gods, which Paul quotes in 2 Thessalonians about what must occur before Jesus can return.
The following narrative details more battles between this king (Antichrist) and the King of the South.
Eventually, the King of the North is defeated, and Daniel 12 follows the events of Daniel 11 right after. Daniel 12 mentions the resurrection of the dead, which is an End Times event. The angels speaking in Daniel 12 reference back to Daniel 11:31 about the abomination of desolation and include this event in the time of the last days and resurrection.
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2 [ESV]).
The resurrection happens when Jesus returns. This can’t all be taking place thousands of years in the past, like the traditional interpretation has it.
These events are a continuous narrative resulting in the resurrection.
The traditional interpretation fails the test of Scripture. And I could be mistaken here, but the logic seems to follow that we have a long time to go. These Kings of the North and South will take generations (at least two) to complete their wars and alliances.
Babylon the Great doesn’t exist yet, though one could make the case it is now being built in the location the Bible gives us, which is the coast of Saudi Arabia in Edom.
The ten kings of the Antichrist alliance are not here yet.
The birth pains are not here yet, though we are in tough times.
These events that are precursors to the Antichrist have not arrived yet.
If these events are yet to be, we might have a century or two millennia before this occurs.
These are just some thoughts I have about Daniel 8 and 11. I hope it gets you thinking a little bit.
